NofNA, "Syconium" page #166

Syconium
166

May 14th, 2017

119 .	by: no one	August 12, 2021, 7:22 pm
@furrama Oh!! That is so cool, thanks for telling me! Haha it's fun to imagine my string of comments as i rabidly type them while drooling hypnotized by syconium xD It also feels a little vulnerable to find out they pop right up for everyone xD rather fitting, even, for this story Anyway i don't think i've noticed any cringy comments from you but the comments sections are so intense i haven't had time to delve into them all ;) it's all very engaging

118 .	by: Furrama	August 10, 2021, 11:25 pm
On the older comments? On the older pages, bleh.

117 .	by: Furrama	August 10, 2021, 11:24 pm
@no one You can see newer comments on the older comments for a limited time on the newest page under the regular current comments. I've been reading all of your comments as they appear (hopefully my old ones aren't too cringy.)

116 .	by: no one	August 9, 2021, 9:57 pm
@furrama Oh shiiiii i never expected a reply to any of my comments xD ! You doing another read through :b ? I've seen various comments from you from years past in this story And yeah that makes sense. It's such a subtle line to balance, where things become negative - where objectification becomes negative (because it's arguable that even that isn't always negative). Although i think here the exploitation is indeed pretty obvious

115 .	by: Furrama	August 3, 2021, 7:24 pm
I think her reference to violation is tied to (S)XY's theory that sex can be reduced to reduction of the self and of the other party's self. Objectification. That's what's violating, they turn you into what they desire by making you do whatever degrading thing that they want to get off. Uh, the sexy is in the power held over the other person. Does that make sense? (It's also what Fig is doing to XX, which is illustrated on the next page.) XX is in a position where she can no longer say "no". Yes she can kick out an individual client here and there, but can she refuse all of these types of requests and remain employed and fed? Can she refuse Fig at all?

114 .	by: no one	August 3, 2021, 3:42 pm
so is she saying those things just ARE forms of violation, or that she feels violated specifically? because people indulging in fetishes with you isn't necessary a violative act. but I suppose in her case she starts to feel like she can't/isn't supposed to turn it down

113 .	by: Hawkpelt	July 26, 2020, 7:46 pm
Huohhhhh god, this page is where the comments section starts getting really fucky. Proceeding with caution... I WILL say that (slight spoilers for future readers) the silhouette of the woman on top of the man in the fantasy resembles that of Honesty later on, which, given how she's characterized and how she herself responds to when this fictional scenario transforms into reality, is pretty goddamn ballsy foreshadowing, and I can absolutely see why people got so upset. URL : http://twitter.com/FrittyKitters

112 .	by: Kaidona	June 1, 2017, 2:57 am
It's partly because some of it strikes me as disrespectful to the creator, and partly because a lot of the time I see the worst of the unironic fictionkin that look like unheard cries for help. The kinds that mirror Kuu's examples and are serious. Tumblr brings out the worst of the fringes in any subculture, really. I tend not to get into the thick of it and instead see awful things from the internet and cringe in the background. My least favorite is the person screaming that they're more oppressed than actual marginalized groups and aren't trolling. They make me cry a little. They're rare but they're out there. (sometimes they're tumblr vegans and fbbb why would you say that) I'm glad that you can understand my reasoning for having some misgivings about the most internet of the 'kins. Also Anne Rice was just nuts, like goddamn. Yeah, a lot of fanfiction can be pretty awful and I don't like it either, but holy shit, calm down lady. URL : http://kaidona.deviantart.com

111 .	by: Finity	May 31, 2017, 11:24 am
I'm not sure how to explain why I feel like that's an unfortunate thing to get frustrated about. Maybe I'm just uncomfortable because that's the kind of reasoning I've seen brandished as an excuse to harass and ridicule kids... Even the kids who are minding their own business, for the most part. Everything's a matter of perspective...I'm both an artist and a writer (...on hiatus (; ), and I've identified as fictionkin in the past, so I've kind of been on both sides. I think you'd be pressed to find a creative whose original works weren't very personal to them in some way. I've definitely felt a little frustrated when I've looked through the tags on artwork I've posted that got popular and there's people who are tagging it as "me." Especially when it was...literally myself as a Pokémon or whatever. But if you spend a ton of time crafting a story, and you're putting that work out there, in most circumstances you're putting it out there to be consumed and enjoyed. Having someone like, relate to, and see themselves in a character is a testament to how well the character is written or designed. Fictionkin is a variably extreme example of that. Sometimes it's kind of weird, and some are less respectful than others (and of course, there's the trolls)...but I think it's a strange and fuzzy line to tread, policing how others enjoy your work. Sometimes it might seem justified (Matt Furie's Pepe the Frog and Dr. Seuss's "Horton Hears a Who" being co-opted by nazis and pro-lifers, respectively, come to mind, though neither of those were really about actually "enjoying" the works, lol)...other times maybe not so much (Anne Rice's past crusade against fanfiction was pretty brutal). And then there's all the grey areas in between. I think this is getting pretty off-topic, ha. But I wanted to at least try to say this much. Maybe also because I think concerning yourself with this kind of stuff too much can make you wary of sharing your work, which is REALLY unfortunate. (Still trying to work on that myself, haha...!)

110 .	by: Kaidona	May 26, 2017, 3:14 pm
It's a source of frustration for me that nasty people manage to trick kids into thinking they're oppressed because they're unhealthily obsessed with [thing]. That's my only major contribution. As far as why I don't like fictionkin it's a matter of perspective. My original works are very personal to me. The last thing I would want is some stranger claiming that one of the characters I spent over a decade crafting was their identity. Kuu's argumen specifically had to do with them, not otherkin as a whole. I joined simply to clarify what fictionkin were and it spiralled. URL : http://kaidona.deviantart.com

109 .	by:	May 26, 2017, 1:45 pm
Yeah and the original argument was that "it's easy to dismiss women feeling powerless because otherkin exist." The whole thing is indefensible.

108 .	by: Finity	May 26, 2017, 12:43 pm
Yeah, you know, as an otherkin (and transgender) reader, this has been kind of an uncomfortable conversation to watch crop up out of basically nowhere. Kaidona, I'm under the impression that people will take any excuse to justify their hatred for transgender identities; the fault doesn't lie with otherkin or fictionkin (and/or kids being publicly embarrassing online, which they will always find new and interesting ways to do on their journeys to adulthood). No sense in holding any of them responsible.

107 .	by:	May 26, 2017, 9:05 am
This page is about rape fantasies dinamics and sex and you guys link it to otherkins and transexual people just to report your distaste.

106 .	by: Kaidona	May 26, 2017, 7:07 am
Okay, the reason I didn't get into the part about the trans community being affected is because it's not only trolls, and I'm fully aware that most of them are. I was attempting not to extend the discussion further holy shit. Next time try not to call people gullible where it's unwarranted. Trolls or not it DOES affect the trans community. People who aren't aware of the troll ratio see that shit and pass judgements in all directions. URL : http://kaidona.deviantart.com

105 .	by: kuu	May 26, 2017, 6:35 am
and how the hell is it healthy and good to be mentaly ill and link yourself to a fictional character? i can't report a nice troll to the mods but "i had a two hour panic attack because I'l never see Papyrus and Dad again" how is that healthy to use for your mental illness? "well I don't know why I'm upset, must be because I won't see my fellow Undertale cannonmates again"

104 .	by: kuu	May 26, 2017, 6:19 am
well the one who was crying about seeing porn of themself on tumblr is on chickensmootie. gotta love a kid friendly site where they black list snarky people who tell the trolls to stop being trollish while being labled one themself they should make me a mod there and give strikes to the kiddos who pull those stunts. a harsh no nonsence one "hi i'm kin of _______ blahblahblah" and blacklist from the 'kin topic you go more when the pranksters go "hey I'm kin of _________ I'm looking for cannon mates from my own world" and then they cry about how mean the world is and wear ribbons for mental health awarness or sob how mommy and daddy don't care about their belief. I think I have a screen capture of the mentaly ill kid who was on tumblr and "saw images of her kintype that were of an adult nature and it got her very upset to the point of a panic attack" or it put them in tears and they really wish people would tag it. because it was offensive. when so many are ill why not just push to make fiction kin a mental illness? it's for their own good. at least now they could get some legal benefits. a person who beliefs to be a video game character can be discriminated against, a mentally ill person can't

103 .	by:	May 25, 2017, 7:53 pm
how to know the otherkin trolls are successful: people like kuu and kaidona fell for it

102 .	by:	May 25, 2017, 3:47 pm
well this went places i know it's tempting to make fun of otherkin because they seem weird, but let me tell you most of the extreme otherkin behavoir you've seen is almost certainly trolls trying to make them look bad. most otherkin/fictionkin are usually just mentally ill and/or young people using fictional characters to cope, and you rarely ever see them pulling dramatic bs like the comments have been describing.

101 .	by:	May 25, 2017, 12:15 pm
This conversation is waaaaay weirder than someone empathizing with Greenie.

100 .	by:	May 25, 2017, 7:29 am
person 1: "help help someone is spreading sexualy explicit images of me on the internet" person 2: * sees images* "uh these are drawings of what looks like a Final Fantasy character" person 1: "yeah that is me, it's so horrible. isn't it. I know what revenge porn now feels like"

99 .	by: kuu	May 25, 2017, 6:35 am
well it is all patrarchy, be it a real woman oggled AND a guy oggling a cartoon character a woman thinks she is. it does mean oggling a real person so if I thought I was an anime/game/comic/cartoon character. I have every right to be weirded out when I know how many people think I'm sexy and collect naughty drawings of me and fantasize about me..., me being said character? that is the same thing? "stop having sexual thoughts about Orihime Inoue because that is who I really am. my problem is as valid as being groped on the subway! its the same thing, trust me on this. it is cat calling to me" that is valid?

98 .	by:	May 24, 2017, 10:04 am
It is better to just believe women when they say things rather than trying to empathize through a false equivalency. Systemic patriarchy and the effects of that system are not at all the same as the one time you felt weird because you found out fictionkin exist.

97 .	by: kuu	May 24, 2017, 7:41 am
i gave it as an example. if I said this makes me uncomphertable because I identify as these, and say "i am the real one" when another woman says "I don't like people perving on me" and I say "I know how you feel. here is my story" more women "people see me as_________" will be "oh yeah, I encounterd one of those." and tell them my story. as for the "it hurts the Trans community" 80% of facebook likes the way tumblr acts hopefully Zack's characters don't get hijacked, but they won't because other's comics were more popular or marketable. maybe it's to cerebral of a work or the niche is to small . but it's a thing

96 .	by:	May 24, 2017, 1:43 am
"Look at all these Tumblr PERVERTS, I am totally normal and not like them at all"

95 .	by: Kaidona	May 23, 2017, 3:39 pm
Particularly if you don't want a concussion from hitting yourself in the face too much. And then you still hope to gods the people you follow aren't eventually poisoned by the toxicity you're trying to guard yourself from. I've seen a lot of people I followed getting worn down and turned by the parts of Tumblr they criticized. It's painful to watch. URL : http://kaidona.deviantart.com

94 .	by:	May 23, 2017, 3:06 pm
All you can do over there is make extra damn sure to follow the right people, then block, block, block like whoa whenever the crazies show up.

93 .	by: Kaidona	May 23, 2017, 1:35 pm
It affects the trans community as well, but I won't get into that. Tumblr in itself is a toxic place if you end up on the wrong end. URL : http://kaidona.deviantart.com

92 .	by:	May 23, 2017, 12:26 pm
Absolutely ridiculous. That argument is the literal definition of a straw man fallacy.

91 .	by: Kaidona	May 23, 2017, 11:55 am
As far as I know, nobody who comments on the pages directly is a fictionkin who has claimed one of Zack's characters as their kintype. I think what Kuu is getting at is that Tumblr drama has gotten so over the top that legitimate issues, like actual women's issues, are being invalidated by things like people who seriously need help freaking out over porn of their kintypes as though it were porn of themselves. People who do that don't differentiate, either. You have to ask really uncomfortable questions to figure out what the issue is or go digging and sometimes they get offended because you don't trust them enough to take them seriously at face value. That's the problem; things like that have ruined it for the real issues. URL : http://kaidona.deviantart.com

90 .	by:	May 23, 2017, 9:09 am
"I can't take a woman/women seriously because I saw someone acting in a way I thought was weird on the internet" is the strangest personal grievance/straw man fallacy combo I think I've seen yet. I can't even tell if it's misogynistic, it's just too much of a stretch.

89 .	by:	May 23, 2017, 6:35 am
Okay, wait, is someone doing that here? Is someone here saying they're one of the characters? I feel like I missed something.

88 .	by: kuu	May 23, 2017, 5:46 am
being the powerless woman. and viewing cartoon characters as powerless. and saying you are a cartoon character people sexualizing said character is sexualizing they sexualize YOU. both and all are powerless. so it is the same thing as doing it to real people. and it's personal. there is no ymmv and "points of view" it would me like me going "Zack you are cool and all, but I identify as Plum and I don't like how you are portraying me. it makes me feel weird you are using my personal life as entertainment....I would never do some of those things too! I'm the real Plum and would never be a sex worker." then ask someone if they drew an anthro Plum in a pornographic pinup "please take that down, I'm the real Plum and I don't do that"

87 .	by: kuu	May 23, 2017, 5:39 am
yes. to say sexualizing a character. and someone who identify as them. a "my parents and the doctor are wrong..." some do it as a coping mechanism like "i can't live life unless I tell myself I'm Harlie Quinn" but to say "it is valid to flip out when tumblr users don't tag porn of your kintype. that is you after all" so bringing it up. in a "it's hard to listen and believe a woman when she..." because we live in a world where that is legit as well as crying molestation when someone bombards you with naughty emogies so you know. someone who is having a panic attack because they saw some smut "of themself" and "why do people think of me that way....it's icky oh my god the filth won't come off" is being lumped into the same boat as actual rape molestation, sextortion, revenge porn and what not. so it being the same thing. some people are going to view the worse as "sure you are not just saying things for attention?" when you need to say to the person "I know how you feel. someone set up cameras in my house and took photos of me in intimate private ways and spread them all over the internet. I know what it's like, and because you identify as a 14 year old anime character it's worse. I'm here if you need me"

86 .	by: Kaidona	May 21, 2017, 9:14 pm
Identity as in legitimate belief the person is the character they are tagging themselves as. "No I am not Joe Schmoe, I'm fucking Asriel Dreemurr and I'm going to tell you five ways of bullshit how that's supposed to make sense." It's like role-playing that never stops, only taken up a notch and then allowed to fly out of control and fester. And they yell at you if you approach it for what it is: inappropriate make-believe and a possible cry for help. Fandom is just awful in most cases because shit like sexual orientation headcanon happens in all of them. Fuck you if you point out that there's already a canon one and what they picked isn't it. This is the only fanbase I associate with and this is the only place I do it because we don't do that here. URL : http://kaidona.deviantart.com

85 .	by:	May 20, 2017, 7:45 am
Kaidona- "Identity" as in someone's orientation, or "identity" like roleplay? I'm a little unclear on that. There's another super-annoying group of people on Tumblr who insist that everyone "headcanon" fictional characters (usually the male ones) as 100% pure gay or else you're "homophobic", you "oppose gay representation", blah-blah-blah. So heaven help anyone who says "I think this character is bisexual, asexual, or any other kind of sexual identity". (and forget about trans or nonbinary genders)

84 .	by: Kaidona	May 19, 2017, 3:05 pm
Oh, if you want specifically things like what kuu was talking about, people who identify with fictional characters, you want to look up fictionkin. I used to see that floating around Tumblr and get really frustrated with them as a writer and artist whenever a shitstorm blew up because a content creator asked not to have their work tagged as someone's identity. URL : http://kaidona.deviantart.com

83 .	by: Furrama	May 16, 2017, 7:02 pm
@82 I don't believe that I made a positive value judgement on them in my comment. All I meant was: "They exist, have you seen them? They have to do with the subject on which I am speaking."

82 .	by:	May 16, 2017, 8:04 am
@Furrama, nope, those jokes come from bigotry, plain and simple. No basis in valid viewpoints whatsoever.

81 .	by: Dani	May 15, 2017, 5:44 pm
AAA: Adult Animal Allegories ..I love it! I too have had trouble trying to get my friends to try NofNa comics. If I put my Solar System patch on my backpack, maybe I can change that and start discussion with curious folks :D. I'm glad of the page change, because after reading Furrama's comment, I too have a better understanding of Zach's message! He didn't have to do it, but he did. As a heterosexual biological female, I have thought about rape fantasies in my mind before. And how if I ever wanted to act them out, it would be done with consent from the other individual--so not actual rape. I was having a time before the edit trying to see where my thoughts fit in with Zach's/Smoothie's model!

80 .	by: Furrama	May 15, 2017, 4:09 pm
... This is a difficult comic to market, yes? Say it's a deeply philosophical comic about sex and society and then people who might be intrigued by that see the talking animals and nope out. Be up front about the animals and you'll get a lot of other people who are put out that... certain things never get shown. I mean, I think this is great and unique and I love my adult animal allegories/other type stories that explore humanity in such a novel way, but I have had a time recommending this. I will not be denying my weirdness this day.

79 .	by: Downhill	May 15, 2017, 3:48 pm
Thanks Furrama for the explanation, I was pretty confused too (and googling "otherkin" led me to some pretty wild articles...) Although its easy to dismiss people as weird out of hand, I think its good to consider others' point of view. Heck, some people I've told about this comic go "err, what, an intelligent comic about a talking stoat prostitute?" and dismiss it immediately. So all of us here are the weird ones to some people!

78 .	by: Furrama	May 15, 2017, 2:49 pm
It's an illustration as to why they have knee-jerk reactions toward people saying they feel hurt. They are listing something that they feel is petty, (YMMV), and juxtaposing it to women feeling powerless/less powerful compared to men, then using it as an excuse as to deny empathy. In other words, nothing to do with the price of beer at all.

77 .	by:	May 15, 2017, 2:07 pm
I know what otherkin is I just have no idea why it's... relevant... or asexuality either, or the "lol sjws" tone at all.

76 .	by: Furrama	May 15, 2017, 1:49 pm
I think Kuu is touching on the subject of people who identify as characters, and some of them objecting to seeing that character being sexualized (or otherwise portrayed in a way they don't approve of), since they see that character as part of their identity. Otherkin. This is where some of the "I identify as a [insert random noun]" jokes are coming from, if you've seen those. It is a fascinating subject if you want to dig into it.

75 .	by:	May 15, 2017, 1:00 pm
I'm having difficulty as well, would you mind rephrasing, please?

74 .	by:	May 15, 2017, 12:57 pm
@kuu I just cannot parse what you are saying, at all.

73 .	by:	May 15, 2017, 12:53 pm
*sorry, by him i mean XY/smoothie

72 .	by:	May 15, 2017, 12:53 pm
yeah, as a woman I've been consistently belittled, mistreated, assumed stupid/vapid, can't take a single walk without getting at least 2 hoots/requests to smile/etc (literal, not an exaggeration. Twice every walk.) and absolutely can't do things like go out at night or even some areas safely. Have to plan to travel in pairs. I feel highly limited by being petite and female. There are some jobs so dominated by men I can't get into them or thrive in them even if I do. I feel the weight of society and men's gazes and assumptions of me. I've never personally had a male boss treat me with the same respect he treats his male workers. I don't feel completely powerless I guess, but I feel I get a fraction of the entry-level respect men seem to give one another, and don't have the level of freedom they do to pursue what I want. This works in tandem with other things, such as race, sexuality, etc, but even factoring it alone is something... Really glad some women don't feel/experience this but also cannot imagine what that life is like. Even as a child, I felt shame for being a woman and wanted to reject it, because of how we're depicted in media, even cartoons and movies (especially bad when I was young, but not that great now either). I didn't want to be that. I had to spend years figuring out how to not feel that shame. Oversaturation of male perspective in fiction is why I want him to shut up, lol

71 .	by: kuu	May 15, 2017, 12:46 pm
we're in a time that if someone thinks they are Poison Ivy, that seeing her in porn or smut fiction is like a real person's identidy being the topic of porn or smut fiction. just because you identify as a fictional character dosen't mean it is "real" to fret over "eeewww people are sexualizing me" so it's easy to dismiss someone feeling powerless. damn tumblr. I told this to one person and kind of pantomimed and over reacted their distress and upset the woman. her being asexual i guess she can feel that their feelings "are valid" and it is the same.

70 .	by: Downhill	May 15, 2017, 12:38 pm
I'm an openly butch lesbian (and feminist) who works in software, and I've talked to other women similar to me about this... I agree we're disadvantaged, it just feels way overboard to say women are "utterly powerless." We can make a difference. We have worth. We can contribute to society. That's power, even if it's not a lot.

69 .	by:	May 15, 2017, 11:18 am
People saying "Well I'm a woman and I don't feel powerless" are, not to be presumptuous, probably coming from a place of social privilege (they are white, straight, cisgender, not fat, etc.). It is not a good practice to speak for the majority based on your own personal experience. You have to listen to what people say. If some, or A LOT, of women say they feel powerless, but you don't, that doesn't mean they're wrong.

68 .	by: Downhill	May 15, 2017, 10:29 am
@67 I mean, speaking from personal experience, I doubt a majority of women feel completely powerless for their entire lives. But I will say I've been in a good few situations that would've been a lot easier to get out of if I'd had a man's strength and height, or wouldn't have gotten into at all if some guy hadn't got fixated on me or one of my friends. If its another woman, whatever, I could maybe beat her in a fight if I had to as a last resort...I'd barely stand a chance against a majority of blokes. But situations like that are rare, and I go through most of life not thinking about that stuff at all tbh.

67 .	by:	May 15, 2017, 8:10 am
"Are the majority of women really going through life feeling utterly powerless?" Yes.

66 .	by: kuu	May 15, 2017, 5:15 am
50/Shannon try saying that on some places of facebook, or tumblr or anywhere. you'll get a lot of hate. even if you say "biological male/female" social justice hates that. I thought the thing of a rape fantasy was the (fantasy day dream?) was full control and it ended there

65 .	by:	May 15, 2017, 2:56 am
thank you zack for taking people's opinions and experience into account and making decisions about sensitivity. reading the edited version i realized how i was sort of uncomfortable with the original version, but i think the new version gets the meaning across while also being more sensitive to readers. thank you!

64 .	by:	May 14, 2017, 8:18 pm
do not feed the troll

63 .	by:	May 14, 2017, 8:17 pm
He's not obligated to do anything, but it's a show of understanding, compassion, and decency to address it. Quite an excellent thing to do, really. Love this arc.

62 .	by:	May 14, 2017, 8:03 pm
Wow.

61 .	by:	May 14, 2017, 6:26 pm
Zack, you don't have to edit anything just because someone got triggered. You are not obliged to explain yourself to the people in the comments. Fuck them.

60 .	by: Mana [no. 43]	May 14, 2017, 6:16 pm
@46 I'm glad my comment was useful to you! NofNA is so good because of how thoughtful the author is about it. I'm glad Zack listens so carefully to everyone's concerns. The new wording makes it much easier to understand what XY is trying to explain. @Zack Thank you for always hearing what we have to say!

59 .	by:	May 14, 2017, 5:51 pm
Zack, thank you for listening. You're a fantastic artist and writer, but the fact that you hear your audience makes you even better. In my experience, there are a lot of people who will make up excuses, rather than try to work with their fans.

58 .	by:	May 14, 2017, 5:22 pm
Thank you, Zach, for listening to our comments and making this comic. I think it's amazing you can create such a work that helps us come together and debate like this.

57 .	by: Zack	May 14, 2017, 3:51 pm
Hi, Based on reader feedback, and Furrama's last post which made clear the error on this page, I have updated the image to better reflect what a rape fantasy is. Fig doesn't have rape fantasies; she has something along the lines of a fantastic sadomasochism. The reason rape is brought up at all, instead of that, is that I needed the word "violate" to be in the conversation for the next page. So, for this, I would like to thank you, all of the commentators.

56 .	by: Camilasc	May 14, 2017, 11:15 am
Im really enoying this chain of comments. Keep it up guys! Haha. I dont have anything much insightful to contribute other than saying im finding xx and xys growing friendship to be...very cute lol. Pherhaos even ...romantic? But thats opening yet another "can of worms" in a story thats already encompassing so many subjects. Thats interesting right? This is a story about sexual desire, in insolation, but there are so many tangents it can spring off: love, social power, reproduction, parenthood, abstraction, art... it shows everything is connected. Maybe true "meaningless", insolated sex doesnt exist.

55 .	by: natoon	May 14, 2017, 9:19 am
Thanks, Furrama. I think that was what was bothering me about Smoothie's theory,described a lot better.

54 .	by: Furrama	May 14, 2017, 4:16 am
I think some confusion is being stemmed from the page not dividing rape fantasy from actual rape very well. It implies that the woman enjoys being raped when in reality rape fantasies are fantasies only - nobody wants to be raped by definition. So, the fantasy can't really serve as counter rape... it can be explored in the mind, played out in pretend, but that's all. The violation is never real. So that line is a little weird.

53 .	by:	May 14, 2017, 2:47 am
52, yeah, that part tends to be left out of the fantasy. When I hear people describe fantasies like this, it's usually them being so overwhelmingly attractive that normally-decent people lose control, abandon social decorum and stoop to a criminal act in order to have them.

52 .	by:	May 14, 2017, 1:06 am
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but the victim does not "create a change" in the rapist. The person was a predator before the act. They wait for the right opportunity.

51 .	by: Tenka	May 13, 2017, 9:13 pm
I'm still enjoying listening to everything Smoothie has to say. Fig might not be enjoying these new insights, I can't imagine yet what she's going to contemplate later if there's a later for her that allows for contemplation, but by now I'm interested in Smoothie's development too. He's always looked pretty confident and straight, but I think he's grown even less apprehensive around Fig than before. I'm liking following each of their paths. @48's reply to R: That's a very cool description of yours, I'm happy you've reminded me of a friend with sometimes very similar feelings.

50 .	by: Shannon	May 13, 2017, 8:57 pm
What I like to see is XX experiencing intimacy of this kind, that this is probably the first time she has ever talked about her life experiences, the questions she has about who she is and why things are thought to be as they are. She has been through all these motions, riding along without any understanding of what she was actually doing...powerless even when under the illusion of being powerful. An act has all of it's symbolic meaning and weight when the act is understood at its most base level. That she can have the conversation at all, to be free to contemplate aspects of her life that others have found distasteful, must be proving quite an experience for her, as seen in these most recent panels. I personally enjoy the freedom to contemplate and discuss any and all topics without someone making knee-jerk judgements or condemnations from some limited, pre-constructed framework. There is a real thrill in open contemplation, to simply have the freedom to ask and explore without being shamed into silence or denial on that personal truth. Here, we only know that some behaviors and occupations are frowned upon as being wasteful, that some acts are still bewildering when brought to light, even when presented to their most curious and educated. I like that we see imperfect societies still trying to grasp at reality. Why should their reality be a perfect mirror of our own values anyways? I see this as a pretty balanced exchange, maybe a more natural conversation between friends rather than some sort of formal psychoanalysis. He tells her what he has researched, his personal ideas and questions, bounces things off of her. It gets her thinking, and she fills him in on the gritty realities she has observed and experienced in her own life. Together, they can get a clearer picture of the phenomena they are both seeking to better understand. I agree with 9 that it would have been interesting to get her raw opinions on what she is experiencing and doing, more so because it would relieve our curiosity, but I don't think he's overwhelming her with his ideas. She just really doesn't know much about formal theories, the way to talk about these things and she does pipe up as he speaks when something important leaps out to her, so I think it's constructive. It's like the conversations I have with biologists or scientists at large, I lack the formal education/background they have and just can't match the conversational weight they bring...all I can do at times is digest what is being told to me, think it over, see if anything sparks and maybe ask a question if I think I'm understanding it well enough, or object to something. The last thing he says here really brings to mind things like Instagram. Also, when I think about true power, it's not so much what you can force people to do, but more about what people will voluntarily do for you...creating inspiration, motivation...the desire to please. The only work on the side of the powerful is to create that desire. A very powerful entity is wholly a recipient. Looking at some of the conversation here...men and women are not biologically the same environment - we have different levels of various hormones coursing through our bodies and that can vary from individual to individual. Mix into that our infinitely unique life experiences...it creates an enormous kaleidoscope of perspectives that doesn't always fit neatly into categories. I disagree with Hubris about society making women think it is ok for men to do whatever they want with their body and mind. That is a pretty sweeping generalization, isn't it? It certainly wasn't what I was taught or how I go through life. I've worked with men in all sorts of occupations and maybe have just been very lucky to have been treated with great levels of respect? Are the majority of women really going through life feeling utterly powerless? I suppose it could be down to how I interpret behavior - I'm more curious than anything about motivations - I hold the belief that every single act has some hidden logic behind it, with a whole spectrum of psychological threads on a larger web to explore. I never like to make assumptions, those are boring...asking questions is much more interesting! I've also always thought that aspects of sex can be cultivated, just like aspects of who we are in regular life - skills and perceptions...ideas and acts that fill us with sensation and thought, to be avoided or engaged and explored. The same physical acts can be done for different reasons. In a way, our whole lives are a series of symbolic acts.

49 .	by:	May 13, 2017, 8:13 pm
A few of the characters have pointed out how unfriendly XX is to the other female prostitutes, so I wonder if her lack of relationship to other women is going to be a plot point? The only other woman we've seen her interact with is her mother, and that wasn't the greatest relationship. If we look outside XX though, we have seen some great interaction between the other women! They had such great conversations and interesting dynamics with each other, and it makes us really feel their loss now that the atmosphere of the brothel has become so dark and hostile.

48 .	by:	May 13, 2017, 7:39 pm
:o3 #9 is pleased a handful of people liked my thoughts, thanks!! I also do my best to word things like "i think" or "i feel" rather than declarative statements of "this means this", so I hope I come across right with that. I didn't think anyone would appreciate my input... I'm familiar with nofna's format as a long-time reader (and I own Secretary's special edition in print woo woo woo!!), it's more like... a lot of this story has unfortunately been through the mouths of men instead of any of the female characters. I was excited for a central female character that didn't co-star with a more central male (lycosa notwithstanding, since its narrative is fighting it didn't really satisfy my desire to see/extrapolate on non-competitive f/f dynamics). I also don't understand/am disappointed that the only prostitute to have a significant relationship with Fig, whose view she values and respects, is also the only male we see. Why couldn't that role have been played by a woman? Is there a reason? I want less male voices in this story about female sexuality in society, and I hope that happens. At this point, I feel hyper-aware of how much space all the men take up in this comic... and how little the women characters do. I don't know yet if it's something to be addressed by the narrative itself. I want less 'women being effected by/reacting to men' and more women discussing with women, having complex relationships with other women, etc etc. I think Fig could have a more illuminating conversation wit her peers than this outsider ever, ever could provide. I keep hoping Fig will have... any... significant relationship with any female character. Smoothie is increasingly frustrating to me as just another blabbering man taking up pages aha, so that influences my feelings on him. As well as me not liking his opinion on sex and society... I want him to not take up so much of this story's significance. I know that's my own tastes, but I had been wondering for so long, if other readers felt the same and have been disappointed by his possible importance. Just another XY....... no different than the rest in arrogance. To me, heh. @R I hope point # 2 addresses that! For me it's not a paraphilia but merely a fetish (since a paraphilia in our society is specifically a dysfunction, i use that definition), but it's about complete loss of personhood, control, agency... feeling like an object or used, the release of feeling like a toy or tool. Wanting to be relieved of personhood. Disregarded. Because being an active participant is anxiety-inducing, stressful, it relieves a victim in fantasy of having to act or make decisions, but lets them be acted upon and consumed!!

47 .	by: Zack	May 13, 2017, 7:34 pm
Hi, I think that, due to what people have been posting in the comments, it's becoming evident that sex works in many different ways on both a psychological and physiological level. (By that, I mean, the mechanism itself, not just the way it expresses itself.) One person writes, "it works like this and like this," and another responds, "that's not true; for me, it goes..." It is an intensely personal property. I personally did not know about rape fantasies before reading that article, so I apologize if my handling of this subject is insensitive. I should mention, that while I based this page on what I read, the HIOT member's recounting of theory number two is not based on any article. Instead, it's kind of mixed in with what I learned as I was making Secretary.

46 .	by:	May 13, 2017, 7:08 pm
43, that was interesting and thought-provoking. Thank you for it. I'm glad that Zack is pointing out the huge influence that society has on sexual desire, to the point of saying the concept of it was invented by society.

45 .	by: R	May 13, 2017, 7:07 pm
Smoothie really doesn't understand the concept of being submissive, does he? He talks about possession and control, but it's the loss of those that fuels sexually submissive behavior. A rape fantasy would usually be considered submissive. And while I can't claim to know enough about the differences between the animals in nofna and irl humans, I do know that real-life women just don't think this way about rape and men, even when they get off to it. I could understand why this could be a good theory better if i-can't-control-myself, animalistic rape was established as a problem or difference between actual humans and the animals within nofna. Smoothie is putting the woman in a situation where she believes that she is manipulating the man into wanting to have sex with her-- which, I mean, could be somebody's fetish out there, I'm not ruling it out as a possibility-- but from what I understand it's much more about the woman's loss of control than it is controlling the man. It's putting the man's feelings in the focus when the woman's feelings are ultimately going to be more important to her, if that makes any sense. "I'm just that hot, he can't resist" also seems like a sexual idea that would be better executed through other means, and in a fantasy that would usually be played out between consenting individuals it's entirely possible to do so. When applied to rape, "I'm just that hot, he can't resist" seems like it's a justification more than a driving force within the fetish.

44 .	by: Witticaster	May 13, 2017, 6:55 pm
I got the impression that the New York Times article was a jumping-off point into the actual scientific research papers that inspired the article. Good point, 41. The differences are still clearly there whether they're caused by nature or by nurture.

43 .	by:	May 13, 2017, 6:48 pm
[warning: this is largely an opinion formed from the life experiences of a transgender person[[me]] and a mishmash knowledge of sexuality and medicine] Sildenafil [v i a g r a] does actually work for some women, if their issue is physical, and it won't necessarily work on men whose problems involve a psychological lack of interest or low testosterone. I read an interesting piece of writing recently by a woman who participated in a clininal trial for flibanserin [a former antidepressant], which is a drug meant to address the psychological side of lack of sexual desire. However, flibanserin apparently didn't work very well even in its clinical trials [compared to a placebo]. Fairly recent research suggests that womens' desire for sex isn't necessarily as reliant on what society thinks it's based on, but is, in fact, limited by society's ideas about female sexuality being passive and shameful. Even if women want to initiate, they may not, as society teaches them that they must wait for men to 'take the lead'. Some writers suggest that, if not for this, female sexuality/desire would possibly be even stronger and more prevalent than male sexuality. Even orgasm is also quite similar in both sexes, though there are individual differences in type that largely even out and aren't restricted to either sex. Transgender individuals [like myself] and intersex individuals also aren't much different from cisgender and dyadic individuals in terms of desire and physical sensations. tl;dr things may not actually be that different, but society's attitude, a past lack of interest/research into female sexuality, and any actual differences between the sexes make it difficult to pin down at this moment. The reality of the situation is probably that there are some actual physical differences that can also reflect mentally, but they're not as significant as we once thought and it's probably largely societal. Thank you for making such a thought-provoking comic, Zach!

42 .	by: Furrama	May 13, 2017, 6:17 pm
@Hubris That was beyond rude. Disagree, fine, but don't be catty about Zach's inspirational or research sources or he might get to the point where he never tells us anything again. (Wikipedia... what does that have to do with the price of beer?!?)

41 .	by:	May 13, 2017, 6:15 pm
@hubris: i don't think "sex works differently for women" and "society treats sex differently for women" are mutually exclusive, because the latter greatly influences the former. even if we learn to recognize how society has shaped our views on sex for and about women, the psychological effect of being socialized that way is really long-lasting. learning how society has influence one's views on their sexual agency, body, and sexuality is a part of a women's sexual experience, i think. in any society where sexism exists - and it does in nofna's, evident even in secretary - there's gonna be some long-term psychological effect. it's a complicated subject that i don't think can be as easily dismissed as "new york times isn't a credible source"

40 .	by:	May 13, 2017, 4:26 pm
hubris, sex actually does work differently for women. speaking as a woman with this paraphilia, I can say it was not a "taught" thing by society, I have not experienced pushy men or a traumatic experience to cause this, but instead the feelings and situation behind an encounter are what is arousing, which is why a pill for women would be much more difficult to get the same effect than for men, who are more short-term and visually aroused. the fantasy is about being able to give up control, so women would need to have agency over their bodies to begin with. I think this is a plausible theory here that zack has written, I'm grateful to see someone address this in a way without bias. I hope the second theory isn't about turning trauma into a controllable fetish, because it doesn't explain cases that have had no negative experiences (like mine, or even XX before Battery), but we will see.

39 .	by: Dani	May 13, 2017, 3:24 pm
Interesting opinion 37! I also wonder how her relationship with Smoothie will evolve. I disagree Hubris. I think the experience of sex is different for the sexes, due to biological and psychological differences.

38 .	by: hubris	May 13, 2017, 2:34 pm
@zack consider this idea: sex does not work differently for women but rather society treats it that way. rape fantasies exist because women dont have agency over their bodies, mentally and physically. they are socially taught that its ok for a man to be pushy or force themselves on them. new york times is a poor source, try something credible. and no wikipedia isnt credible either

37 .	by:	May 13, 2017, 1:35 pm
i don't think this is the guy she's gonna end up having a long term relationship with (if she ever does, there's no need for stoats to have life partners) he's just another experience wherein she learns more about herself. Greenie and her liked to get rough, she got too rough physically and hurt him, and he got too rough mentally and is hurting her. Chef/Morning Glory explored the joys of pure oblivion, eschewing society, until it turned out she wanted to keep persuing her original art and communicate to the world her ideas, and he wanted to go wild. Açai questioned her willingness to stick with visual arts, the new Cherry questioned her willingness to stick with sexual art. This XY was initially very attractive to her, but is stonewalling her sexual desires and questioning her very identity as a person.

36 .	by:	May 13, 2017, 1:10 pm
If they do have sex, I hope he's really bad at it. Super self conscious and encumbered by trying to analyze. And I hope he sprouts a big actual hatch blush.

35 .	by: kuu	May 13, 2017, 7:05 am
i can't post because of an error saying i have htmls coding in my reply.

34 .	by:	May 13, 2017, 2:04 am
I think, if nothing else, the fact that this page is prefaced by a page in which XY attempts to explain Mendelian genetics and only partially succeds helps... soften the blow? It sort of sets up a context of XY and (nofna's) society at large still working out things that our society has at least figured out. Interested to see that second theory, though. I wonder if trauma is going to be brought up much? It seems like it's lingering under the surface of the narrative but hasn't had as much play at all.

33 .	by:	May 13, 2017, 1:43 am
@9: agree and well said

32 .	by:	May 12, 2017, 8:47 pm
Nofna arcs are definitely better when read after everything's been posted. But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy waiting on new pages.

31 .	by: Dani	May 12, 2017, 7:05 pm
I think a sexual encounter between Fig and Smoothie is imminent!

30 .	by: Zack	May 12, 2017, 6:26 pm
(I have to type V i a g r a like that in order to defeat my own spam filter)

29 .	by: Zack	May 12, 2017, 6:25 pm
Hi, Yes, this is based on real research. I was reading an article in the New York Times about it some time ago. I think it came up when they were trying to figure out a way to make V i a g r a for women, and discovering that it's much more complicated than it is for men, because psychologically, sex works differently for women than it does for men.

28 .	by: hazard	May 12, 2017, 4:53 pm
Rape fantasies are notoriously controversial. IMO it makes sense in many different situations. ALSO, not sure if people realize: one way we deal with sexual trauma is to fetishize it, because fetishizing it puts us in control of the situation, letting us recreate a satisfactory "alternate ending" to the trauma.(you can also see how this can lead to "abused becomes the abuser" if you don't find a willing role-play partner). It's so common you can pretty much guarantee it happening. Doesn't mean you actually want to be traumatized again. It's an automatic defense mechanism. I think this is fine for Zach to cover in his comic. Doesn't mean Smoothie's viewpoint can't be insensitive or whatever.

27 .	by: hazard	May 12, 2017, 4:45 pm
OHHHHHH SHIT THEY WENT THERE I am excited for the next page!! We've seen XX counter Smoothie's assumptions so I imagine she has an angle to share.

26 .	by: Witticaster	May 12, 2017, 4:03 pm
This interpretation of rape fantasy tends to be the LEAST likely to turn discussions into Lord of the Flies; I'm wondering if Smoothie isn't going to lose a few fans when we hear his 'amazing' second theory. Dude means well but he's so cushioned from the reality of sex that he can't even conceive of common paraphilias. @9, I also find this part frustrating to sit through. Were you around during Secretary's fight scenes? Things seem to go on forever and ever thanks to the sloooow progression of comic strip format. XX DID specifically ask him to do all this explaining, though - I assume that after he's done infodumping, we're going to see the true epic begin as she begins to parse through and interpret his perspectives. I think Smoothie's connection between sex and 'possession' was supposed to refer to the social projection mechanism explained earlier, but calling it 'instinct' muddied it up with the pre-social 'estrus' concept and turned it into a confusing mess for me. If it is supposed to refer to sex's co-opting of social projection then of course you're not going to see it in non-sapient animal sexual sexuality, it's a uniquely social phenomenon. There's several pieces of symbolism that indicate that XX actually represents the mother wasp that enters the fig. The most obvious symbolism is how she loses her 'wings' (the leaves) when she goes inside the brothel. Also the comment on how "death is the only escape". I think if Fig is nurturing anything, it's XX's offspring, not her.

25 .	by: Furrama	May 12, 2017, 3:56 pm
This feels like it's crawling because of how the comic is being distributed. Two pages a week is a lot for a comic! But it's slow on our end compared to other forms of media or comics that distribute entire books at a time. If you go back and read it all at once up to this point it doesn't feel quite so bad. She's less passive than one might think... her struggle has been internal and contained in visual symbolism and glances, which is a different change of pace for most of these comics, (which were more WE SPEAK WITH THE BODY! HIYA! Though those were more of a slog for me when they were updating one page at a time, when you needed like, seven pages to get the full context for a maneuver. They read fine in one go though.) XY hasn't really been here that long, (THIS XY anyway). I'm glad he's here, he brought some meaty context and comic relief with him. Fig really needed a friend too, and I like my friendships in stories to take their sweet sweet time. Especially if they're as important as I suspect this one is going to be.

24 .	by:	May 12, 2017, 3:46 pm
@9 is everything Ive been wanting to say about the current pages that I havent been able to articulate myself, my much less eloquent statement being; let fig speak!!

23 .	by: Furrama	May 12, 2017, 3:33 pm
Have y'all ever cracked college level and up psychology books? For like, social workers or such? This is the kind of stuff that's being discussed, with case studies. We human animals are still trying to wrap our heads around ourselves. And a lot of what is in those books will scar you for life if you're not prepared for it. I know a few people who wanted to go into social work to help people, but they lol-noped out of there after semester uno.

22 .	by:	May 12, 2017, 3:33 pm
That's why rape fantasy is a fantasy, and role-playing it doesn't make it actual rape. The fantasy is different from the reality of actual rape.

21 .	by: natoon	May 12, 2017, 3:31 pm
If she's thinking about what's going on in his head manipulatively as he attacks her, is she being raped? Isn't rape about anger, domination, power on the part of the rapist? Isn't the victim's powerlessness and fear, the lack of consentuality what makes it rape? #9, I think xx was stunned by Battery's shock and was disoriented and unconcious (lost memory of) part of that ordeal. Battery claimed she liked it, but he is an unreliable source for that info to say the least. Still, you may be right about that. Your comments were extremely interesting and persuasive!

20 .	by: Kaidona	May 12, 2017, 3:18 pm
Something to remember while reading this is that things aren't exactly the same between NofNA canon and real life. These animals are able to eat things that should otherwise be incredibly toxic for them. That being said, the way their halo brains work may not mirror what animal psychology we currently have researched in real life. Try not to get upset with the fantastical fiction aspects of it. This is fantasy, after all. URL : http://kaidona.deviantart.com

19 .	by: hubris	May 12, 2017, 2:43 pm
what the fuck is your problem

18 .	by: ItPierces	May 12, 2017, 1:55 pm
@17 I'm not sure that works. Otters are mustelids. Also: URL : http://youtube.com/watch?v=3vwgnd53q-4

17 .	by:	May 12, 2017, 12:49 pm
brb leaving this mustelid society for a cool river otter society

16 .	by:	May 12, 2017, 12:16 pm
Really? I cant believe youre using rape as a philosophical conversation....

15 .	by:	May 12, 2017, 12:13 pm
dude what the fuck

14 .	by:	May 12, 2017, 11:54 am
Her mom is an example too of how society looks down on sexuality. It can be easy to forget since the suppression of her art is the focus of this story, but her sexuality was also rejected multiple times (her mother, her Syconium painting, being forced to leave her home). I definitely think we'll see Fig and XX come together more harmoniously, rather than see Fig be overtaken by XX.

13 .	by:	May 12, 2017, 11:36 am
And if you see paraphilias/fetishes as an abstraction of a different desire, and how XX used to paint representative art and how that became abstracted, and oh my god I just realized all the connections, I'm so dumb. I definitely think the endgame is XX/Fig becoming a strong, unified identity - it's what I'm hoping for, and similar to the new year's picture Zach made in January. (is there an animal Freud in this society yet? They would have a field day with her attraction to Smoothie considering his similarities with her mom)

12 .	by:	May 12, 2017, 11:09 am
@9 Wow... what a well-written response. Especially the last paragraph really changed my thinking on how this story works. Fig isn't the wasp subjugating its host, XX is the wasp growing inside the protective fig. Nice.

11 .	by:	May 12, 2017, 11:09 am
We've seen that 'higher-ups' in society look down on sex, especially when people seem to be giving in to their base instincts and over-indulging like we see happening with the brothel. I think he's been intermingled in that sort of thinking, that sex is corruptive and undignified, derailing people from higher pursuits. He seems to come from the opposite extreme, noted by his refusal to have sex with Fig and feeling like he has self control to not give in. From his perspective giving in would be like losing, betraying himself, so I don't feel like he's just spilling the one truth to Fig, here. This is his perspective and also society's perspective, and it gives us a window into how their society feels about sexuality. I think Fig will take this information and draw her own conclusions, as clearly she isn't happy with a lot of what she's hearing ("by the way we've been talking, all sex is violation"). But it is her opportunity to understand why she may have been rejected when she was younger. Both her art and sexuality was dismissed with the Syconium painting. I feel like we'll see both brought together again by the end in a more refined vision.

10 .	by:	May 12, 2017, 10:43 am
TL;DR i hope that some of what he's said is more to show us where society is at, a dismal place, simply for context to contrast more innovative conclusions that fig/xx is capable of, and he isn't.

9 .	by:	May 12, 2017, 10:41 am
i'm really eager for him to shush up at this point honestly. I care about fig's thoughts and feelings and extrapolation on her own experiences. I'm getting bummed by how she continuously has no agency in her own story at all... and to a degree I understand the purpose of the narrative, one about robbed agency, but in this specific instance I just can't really stand a guy going on and on for pages and pages and her just saying "i dont get it" or "wow" and him going on more and more. I'm waiting for it to end and it just doesn't! He's supposed to be analyzing and studying her... It feels like bad research praxis to influence her thoughts on this stuff before even knowing her own gut interpretation of things. It's compromising your study that's supposed to be based on getting NEW information to CHALLENGE what you THINK might be true. His idea might be trying to give her the tools to understand better, but I don't think that's what this is accomplishing. I also personally believe sex is simply a social mechanism like any other, and don't agree with any of his/HIOTs more abstract attempts at describing it, so... well. The books I've read on gender & sexuality in animals destroy all of his theories on possession and control. Maybe in certain animals this dynamic applies, but that has more to do with an all-encompassing territoriality that only encompasses sex as much as it encompasses everything else. Animals already have useless attractions based on nothing helpful, it isn't an advent of modern society. It's why they might adapt to be more brilliantly bright with plumage, against the sense of hiding yourself. A paraphilia that directed evolution into a tight corner, for pure sexual attraction. So again it isn't distinct, but another aspect of the everything. I'll be keeping reading and I'm not here to ream anyone or anything, but I do wonder if anyone else here is tired and frustrated by this guy and thinks his ideas/concepts are garbage. I want to see fig discover real meaningful truth, about the place and purpose of sex as communication. His ideas feel backwards and ancient, like our old (and still ingrained) ideas of sexuality. Since this is early society I'd believe they're still in this stage. So I hope fig spearheads revolutionary thinking instead of simply absorbing his words like an unthinking sponge. Your thoughts and experiences are more grounded and valuable and real than his theories, girl. Show them all what your personal truths are! Emerge as a wasp to sting society's ideas from the womb of the fig. For what its worth too, paraphilias are abstractions of sexuality, i think.... Removed from the perceived intent of conveying/accomplishing something (like art that depicts recognizable subjects). Focusing on simply a want and desire for something, beyond 'functionality'. I feel there's a lot of parallels between abstract art and paraphilia, abstracted sexuality. Finding your own meaning and expression outside of a function. Both are tools for communicating, too. As someone with a paraphilia, I have a lot of feelings on this.... [I want to say... I don't think fig is actually longterm harmful to xx. the fig that encases the still-forming wasp helps protect it during development. would xx have survived in this environment without her womb? thinking of a synconium, i think she's essential and integral to her development, and rejecting/'defeating' her isn't conducive to growth]

8 .	by:	May 12, 2017, 10:00 am
Hmmm are XY's theories are based on specific scientific research or just an extrapolation/theorizing by Zack based on general knowledge of the topics involved?

7 .	by:	May 12, 2017, 8:46 am
Theory two: mammals are crazy

6 .	by:	May 12, 2017, 6:59 am
This reminds me of the scene with Battery- XX seemed to be dreaming almost and was scared and submissive in that dream- but imagined her own alter-ego Fig in the place of Battery, talked with RG about it as being her thing, then turned out to have fought back and scratched him. Its still hard to parse the meaning of all that though, even now we know so much more.

5 .	by: kuu	May 12, 2017, 6:00 am
how many women have rape fantasies where they are the rapist? would that be like any other power fantasy? like a violent terrorist one? or someone's day dream of being a super villain or demonic wizard taking over the world?

4 .	by:	May 12, 2017, 4:53 am
Zaaaaaaachhhh, why would you leave us with so much of a cliffhanger?

3 .	by:	May 12, 2017, 4:05 am
My friend has these fantasies.. Rape is one of my biggest fears, and when she talks about said fantasies, it's really uncomfortable.. Doesn't help that she ignores the fact that it makes me uncomfortable..

2 .	by:	May 12, 2017, 3:37 am
Uh... what

1 .	by:	May 12, 2017, 3:29 am
What is theory two!! Jeez!!! Don't leave us like this!